[RESOLVED] Update pack causes blackscreen after splashscreen

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RogueSpear
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Post by RogueSpear » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:36 pm

In the last couple of years Symantec has shown me that they have close to no quality control of any kind. Their ineptitude exceeds that of Microsoft's IMO. While I normally tend to blame Microsoft for almost all of my technology woes, I'm willing to bet that Symantec is complicit in this one.

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Post by creep in the cellar » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:19 am

okay u got me i work for syamntec. now let me get back to mac os x box to finish my term paper. hahahahahahahahaa


yes they have really dropped the ball on there extremely great enterprise product. the name can only last for so long. now it has become riddled with holes as of late. i am about to jump ship.if i did not have so much damn money invested in this product. so far they have not been much help. woe is me. hahahahaha

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Post by ByThor » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:10 am

Since removing the DCOM tweaks, I have had no problems loading from the disks created as stated in my first post. We use Symantec 10.1 and it no longer blackscreens. Again, since Symantec is loading before networking to better secure the system, once it can't communicate with the networking the way it wants, it halts the system. Maybe its the DCOM or COM+ components that most us want to take out since nothing ever used them before.

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Post by RyanVM » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:19 am

ByThor, would you mind posting what DCOM tweaks you use?
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Post by ByThor » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:20 pm

The DCOM tweaks are the ones in NLite, which they say is like running dcombobulator. I also have a regedit file, but have not had to change it. Symantec has been integrating more and more with the windows networking. I stopped using the SCS about 2 years ago because it was being a pain if it didn't like the networking connection on boot-up. We use Symantec AV on our network and since I don't feel uninstalling and reinstalling AV on a thousand systems, I had to make the install disks work. I didn't mention the problem here because I knew it was a Symantec problem. The system was always fine until Symantec was loaded.

PS...I would like to thank all of the contributors here for their hard work.

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Post by RogueSpear » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:27 pm

That's funny, I ditched SCS last year myself and downgraded, if that's the proper term, to SAV. I've actually found the Windows XP firewall to be more secure of a firewall than SCS because I don't have to constantly disable the XP firewall like I did with Symantec's just to get things to work. It saves me a few thousand annually as well so that I can spend money on something else that works.

It's starting to get to the point now where I may end up not spending a dime with Symantec starting in 2007. If the issue that this thread is about ends up being a Symantec issue, I'm leaving them for sure.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:41 am

RogueSpear wrote:I've actually found the Windows XP firewall to be more secure of a firewall than SCS because I don't have to constantly disable the XP firewall like I did with Symantec's just to get things to work.
It's interesting you mention that because I've been wrestling with the SCS firewall all week just to get a shared folder working bidirectionally across my network. In the end I just disabled the firewall, configured the folder, then reenabled the SCS firewall and it's all good (except that now my bootup times have extended to about 4 minutes).

I have both SCS 3.1 and SAV 10.1 (free from work). I'll try my install with SCS first and see what happens. I can always reformat and set it up again but with SAV. That's a better control group then just running recursively back through Ryans packs.

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Post by ByThor » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:38 am

I have to struggle with SAV 10.1 at work but I moved away from Norton/Symantec for home use a long time ago. It buries itself so far into the networking that even if you try to uninstall it, you have to reformat your system. NOD32 and Windows Firewall are all I use on my personal computers and have never had a problem. All through this thread I have only seen this problem with Symantec products. I am pretty sure if others were having it, they would chime in also.

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Post by Juzman05 » Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:23 pm

Yeah, I've had the same problem.. Didn't happen with older version of RyanVM update Pack / NLite, only Nlite 1.0 RC8 and the new RyanVM updatepack.

I've decided to swap to NOD32 Anti-Virus and forget about SAV, since thats the only problem.

PerfectDisk works fine, I think I noticed in the discussion somewhere that someone was having problems with it.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:50 am

OK, I'm in the process of installing my first test disc onto my laptop. Here's the steps I've taken to build this disc.
Used nLite to copy CD to folder.
Used nLite to slipstream SP2
No nLite tweaks applied at all.
Used Ryan's integrator to integrate RVM update pack 2.0.6
No driver integration, no tweaks, no other update packs or addons.
Used Ryan's integrator to build ISO.
I'll post an update if anything noteworthy happens.
Below is the play-by-play:

First boot, so far so good.
Updated drivers (audio, nic, wireless, modem)
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Boot into safe mode, copied previous WPA.DBL file over to system32 folder.
reboot.
Went online, attempted activation (denied, claimed OEM license key invalid). bummer.
WU auto-installed KB892130 (WGA Validation Tool) & KB905474 (WGA Notification Tool.
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Installed .NET 1.1sp1 and .NET 2.0 silent switchless installers from here.
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Installed ATI Catalyst 6.5 (used DHModTool 3)
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Went online, attempted activation with license key from sticker attached to laptop, Success!
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Installed Symantec Client Security 3.1
Updated post-install via LiveUpdate.
Shut down, boot clean...good. (Symantec firewall finishes updating itself and worming into the OS.) :lol:
Revisit Microsoft Update. Only Windows Media Player downloads available (WMP10, WMC 2.0 KB909993, Update for WMDRM-enabled players KB891122). Not downloading these yet.
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Installed LiveUpdate updater, SCS3.1.0.400 maintenance patch.
Restart. BAM! Black Screen returns.
Force shut down. Cold boot normal windows startup...BAM! Black Screen returns.
Force shutdown. Boot into Safe mode...Good.
Start boot scan for chkdsk "automatically fix file system errors" flag checked.
Restart. disk scan in progress.
BAM! Black Screen returns.
Force shutdown. Boot into Safe mode...Failed.
I'm done. Time for dinner.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:13 pm

Next I'm going to try my SP2 CD with no packs integrated at all.
Edit.
No, actually I'm beginning to believe the problem lies in the order these things are installed in. I'm going to try the exact same CD but load SCS before anything else. Then Drivers, then activate and see what happens.

Any thoughts before I begin?

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Post by mr_smartepants » Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:55 pm

No comments?
OK, here goes.
Using the exact same CD as above.

First boot, so far so good.
Went online at blue welcome screen, attempted activation...success! (used key from sticker instead of key gleaned from stupid OEM restore CD).
Went online, attempted activation with license key from sticker attached to laptop, Success!
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Automatic updates grab WGA Validation Tool.
Installed Symantec Client Security 3.1
Updated post-install via LiveUpdate.
Shut down, boot clean...good. (Symantec firewall finishes updating itself and embeding itself into the bowels of the OS.) :lol:
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Updated drivers (audio, nic, wireless, modem)
Shut down, boot clean...good.
Installed SCS3.1.0.400 maintenance patch.
Restart...Good! (But takes like 3 minutes...weird delay)
Shut down, boot clean...BAM. Black Screen returns!
Force shutdown. Boot into Safe mode...Good.
System Restore back one step.
Shut down, boot clean...good( but again takes like 3 minutes).
Now SCS is back down to 3.1.0.396 and AV signatures are out of date.
Drivers are lost too. I'm back to post SCS install, pre-drivers install.
Last edited by mr_smartepants on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by creep in the cellar » Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:10 pm

well in my personal experience i alwasy installed SCS first. mainly because if i did it created weird problems later.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:28 pm

I've had it. I'm going to hang out with my wife for a while.
I'll wrestle with it tomorrow. :?

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Post by RyanVM » Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:35 pm

So you got the black screen with no Update Pack at all?
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Post by RogueSpear » Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:38 pm

Yea I was kinda wondering that myself. I never did try to make a bad source without the update pack. Probably because a source without the update pack is practically useless.

I think I'm going to be using AVG Free temporarily. Either until Symantec is proven to not be a problem or until I settle on a different enterprise AV vendor.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:49 am

mr_smartepants wrote: Used Ryan's integrator to integrate RVM update pack 2.0.6
Sorry, I thought I made that clear above.
Yes, I used Ryans 2.0.6 update pack only. No other tweaks/addons.
I'm thinking of trying the same routine but on a virgin SP2 XP disc with zero tweaks/updates. That way we'd know for sure if it's SCS or not, then we can press on searching for the pack that triggers the fault.
It looks as if SCS 3.1.0.396 is working fine, it's the maintenance patch that's triggering it now. Which is weird since both my PCs here at home are working fine on SCS 3.1.0.401 (Maint & point patch).

It still could be a conflict between SCS and WGA since I installed WGA via WU just prior to SCS on both above installs. :?

I ordered a new WinXP Home OEM SP2 disc from Newegg. Maybe switching the source will help.
Any other ideas on which path to take? I'm open to suggestions.

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Post by RogueSpear » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:05 am

I think the problem is more than just the mere presence of something or another. It's a combination of some system file(s) and application(s) coupled with a specific action or trigger. I've spent way too long on this one and still have nothing but half baked theories. The half baked theory I described above is the result of absolutely not being able to pin this on the presence of something. Usually you can definitively say "It's the NIC driver" or "There's a conflict between KBxxxxxx and XYZ application and it's documented at http://... " Obviously that's not the case here.

There are so many variables involved here, that in order to nail it down for sure, you would have to start with an install that will absolutely stay the same in some way. Say SP2 + Update Pack 2.x + SCS 3.1.0.396. The only variable being the Update Pack and that's it. I fell into the trap of too many damn things changing around myself as documented in this very thread. Anyway, from what I described as a testing methodology, you can see that it could take forever to do this. But I really don't see any other way around it.

I'd love to help out further, but at this point troubleshooting this particular issue has set me back close to two weeks on my work. And I'm always months behind normally. If someone can come up with something a little more concrete to investigate I'll take a look at it, but I just don't have the time to continue flailing in the wind like I had been.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:07 am

I've been digging around in the Symantec Enterprise Support site knowledgebase articles and there's no specific entry for this particular fault (yet). There are, however, many, many entries relating to DCOM and COM+ permissions faults with Win2K, WinXP, and Win2k3. Again, nothing about this 'black screen' fault specifically, but there's not enough evidence to point the finger directly at Symantec yet but I have a finger pointed in their general direction. :lol:

I'll see if I can duplicate the fault without any of Ryans packs involved. That should seal the case against Symantec as far as these forums are concerned.

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Post by RogueSpear » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:58 am

mr_smartepants wrote:I've been digging around in the Symantec Enterprise Support site knowledgebase articles and there's no specific entry for this particular fault (yet).
You could get a positive DNA test on a problem and they would still resist putting it in their knowledge base. With Symantec it's as if they think because they have a knowledge base entry for something that it's an admission of guilt. I'm personally responsible for about half dozen of those entries in there too. And I've pressed them to put in a few more as well. I'm a little tired of paying a few thousand annually to be their unwitting beta tester however, which is why I'm now looking at alternatives.

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Post by RyanVM » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:23 am

However, it's not really fair to blame them if a hotfixed file is to blame. And I still ultimately think that's the root cause.
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Post by RogueSpear » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:40 am

Yea the blame game is largely an exercise in futility. However, I have seen before where Microsoft plugged a hole up someplace and that sent some third party software off into a tailspin because they weren't doing things properly to begin with. The other part of this is that Windows XP isn't really optional for me (or most of us), but Symantec's products are.

Now FWIW, I took the last .iso image I had made - the one where I get a hang, hit reset and it boots, and you have to do this for every reboot. Well I deleted the SAV 10.1 installer from it, did an install, and now there's no hang. Literally the only difference between the two is whether or not the SAV installer is in the svcpack directory. I didn't even remove the entry from svcpack.inf.

I went back and did an install with the .iso that contains the installer and I get the hang. Once again though, if I hit reset it will boot.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:11 pm

RogueSpear wrote: Once again though, if I hit reset it will boot.
That's not a workable solution though. My goal is to find the two items conflicting, send an email to M$ and Symantec and say "You two work it out!"

Wishful thinking I know. I did find a four-leafed clover this weekend. :lol:

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Post by RogueSpear » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:41 pm

Ok, so I did another install with the .iso that has SAV removed. It worked, it boots fine. I installed AVG Free and rebooted like 6 times, updating AVG's definitions in there around reboot #3. Kept on working.

Then I uninstalled AVG Free, reboot, install SAV 10.1, reboot, LiveUpdate to get both the new definitions and apparantly a scan engine update, rebooted like 5 times and everything is working great.

So if I install SAV 10.1 from svcpack.inf, it's a bad install. If I install it after everything is done, it seems to work. So we're really not any further along than before, just reporting what I've observed.

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Post by RyanVM » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:54 pm

I've blackscreened both by installing it from GuiRunOnce (my usual way) and by installing it after the fact.

BTW, the most recent release of SAV is 10.1.0.401
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Post by RogueSpear » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:01 pm

RyanVM wrote:BTW, the most recent release of SAV is 10.1.0.401
Yea I saw that. I just didn't want to screw things up even more. I can never seem to find a changelog for their stuff until it's been out for a while.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:08 pm

RyanVM wrote: BTW, the most recent release of SAV is 10.1.0.401
Well I didn't even get that far. :lol:
I only got to maint patch 400, 401 is a point patch but I blackscreened before I got a chance to load it.

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Post by RyanVM » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:26 pm

mr_smartepants wrote:
RyanVM wrote: BTW, the most recent release of SAV is 10.1.0.401
Well I didn't even get that far. :lol:
I only got to maint patch 400, 401 is a point patch but I blackscreened before I got a chance to load it.
Integrate it directly into your source ;)
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Post by RogueSpear » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:29 pm

Well I had to go to a client's after work today. I had been there two weeks ago to install a workstation and got this dreaded black screen hang. The owner was out of town until today. When I was last there, I was unable to get the computer to even boot in safe mode, so I was prepared with a new CD to do a fresh install. For the hell of it, I tried to boot regularly and of course it hung, so I tried safe mode and amazingly it booted.

This was a moment I had been waiting for. I first tried to uninstall SAV, knowing it would probably fail, but I had to try. It did fail since windows installer is unavailable in safe mode. So then I went to Autoruns and I was pretty surprised to find that in safe mode, not nearly as many things show up. I unchecked all of the Symantec related items I could find, which was only around 3 or 4 and rebooted. Still not booting. Back to safe mode and I decided to use the "nuclear option" by uninstalling LiveUpdate and then just forcibly deleting the SAV directory and as much of the Symantec Shared directory as I could.

Reboot.... success. I then spent another 45 minutes surgically removing every last vestige of SAV which hung on with a tighter grip than half of the spyware I've ever encountered. You probably couldn't convict anyone on this evidence, but it's enough for me. If it smells like a turd, it's a turd. There is definitely something about Symantec's latest products that is involved with this issue -- that is IMO.

I'm now going to start catching up on all of the work that I've let slide for the last three weeks and put any and all Symantec products up on shelf. Symantec has pissed me off to no end for the last several years with their steady and swift downward spiral. This is probably the breaking point for me. They've run that once highly esteemed company's image into the ground about as effectively as our so-called president has with our country's.

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Post by ENU_user » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:22 pm

about time , finally ,its good to hear ur free urself from this nag symantec product
if it doesnt serve the needs of moding the setup the way you intended it to ..
Good enough ..not ur cup of tea!

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Post by mr_smartepants » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:48 am

I just wish I could find a decent replacement for SAV/NAV. The issue always falls back to real-time protection. The cheaper/free alternatives don't have a robust real-time protection scheme (that I've found). Don't even mention McAfee! :evil: Their products are even worse than the filth their intended to protect you from.
I've tried, on occasion; AVG & Avast. And I've never had a single problem with either.
Symantec's products do work. But when they fail, they do so spectacularly!
:rolleyes:

I'm seriously considering migrating to Windows Live OneCare for my home setups. Even though I get SCS/SAV for free from work, even free is not worth the hassle.

Of course, that would violate the golden rule of software:
"Never install version 1.0 of anything"

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Post by 5eraph » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:07 am

mr_smartepants wrote:Of course, that would violate the golden rule of software:
"Never install version 1.0 of anything"
...unless you like to pay to be a beta tester. :P

Since I've started using avast! I've never looked back. It even manages to catch everything that my little girl picks up on her computer when she goes looking for "free games." :rolleyes:

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Post by RogueSpear » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:58 am

In case anyone out there still cares about this....

I had to redo a laptop today, so I RISed it and the OU it's in pushes SAV 10.1 through GP. It hung the computer just like when installed via svcpack. I've never had a computer go tits up on me when I've installed SAV manually so I don't know if the install time is a problem for one reason or another.

To get the system back up I did a little something. Maybe it could help someone else. I booted into safe mode, ran the SAV client, then closed it. Then I ran Crap Cleaner to get rid of registry entries, then did a registry defrag with NTregOpt and rebooted. It's been fine ever since. I don't which one of those things or in fact a combination of them fixed the hang on boot problem.

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Post by coukou » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:18 pm

mr_smartepants wrote:It's interesting you mention that because I've been wrestling with the SCS firewall all week just to get a shared folder working bidirectionally across my network. In the end I just disabled the firewall, configured the folder, then reenabled the SCS firewall and it's all good (except that now my bootup times have extended to about 4 minutes).
Sorry to pollute this post although i'm at its origin. I think all the relevant tests was made. As far as i'm concerned, I spent about 2 weeks to find that the SCS 3.1 bring the problem. Today i"m working with SCS 3.02.

mr_smartepants, i've the same problem: can't get a shared folder working bidirectionally across my network.
May you give me more details how did you configured yr folder?

TNX
coukou

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Post by mr_smartepants » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:47 pm

Coukou, PM'd you.
:)

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Post by ByThor » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:59 am

I have been busy with pushing out the 401 patch for SAV 10.1 and getting ready for vacation. I have built about 20 systems with a CD created the way I posted earlier and have had no blackscreens. All other software is run either at runonce or manually. I install SAV via ClientRmote Install or manually from the vphome share of the server because of the problems I encountered when people loaded from other locations and updates could not find the original install msi. I wish I had the time to try and find the root of the problem but right nowI have it working. I'll keep watching and see if the root of the problem is ever found, but right now its time to go find a nice Greek Island beach and sit back with a nice cold Amstel.

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Post by RyanVM » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:10 am

Once finals are over (next week), I'm going to make a heavy push to solve this once and for all. Depending on the progress I make, it may delay the release of the next pack (if I can see it being resolved fairly quickly). Otherwise, I'll update the next pack as soon as it's solved.
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Post by RogueSpear » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:15 am

I'm updating my SAV sources (both Group Policy and switchless installer) to the 401 patch to see if that resolves it. Has anyone located a change log from Symantec to see if this was documented anywhere?

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Post by RyanVM » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:37 am

AFAIK, 400-->401 was simply a security update
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Post by mr_smartepants » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:51 pm

RyanVM wrote:AFAIK, 400-->401 was simply a security update
That's right.
More info on both patches can be found here.

I've given up on Symantec. Free or no free. :evil:

I just ordered M$ Live OneCare from Amazon for $20. Linkage
What's the chance of getting OneCare rolled up into an addon_pack? :D

hatchet

adding to the black screen discussion, my experiences

Post by hatchet » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:17 pm

first off ryanvm, thanks so much for your work on this problem as well as the general work you do on the hotfix packs.
Here's where we noticed the blackscreens. Here at a local university in st. louis, me and my guys wanted a way to speed up all the custom installs we do. I integrated the hotfix pack into our xpsp2 install cds so we could be that much quicker to acustom install. my coworkers and I have built numerous custom installs using the ryanvm xpsp2 cds we make. we have no problems with those. where the problem comes is when we sysprep the machine then make an image then plop it on the same exact hardware. it comes up maybe once or twice then we get the blackscreens. the only way we've seen to fix it is with a "repair" We never have this problem when we build the images from scratch using the factory xpsp2 cd we have and manually running windowsupdate.

btw we do use many various versions of SAV 10 on the images.

perhaps this little bit of insight could help you on your way to solving the problem. let me know if you need any other info. i'd be happy to provide any specifics i can.

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Post by RyanVM » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:46 pm

Most of what you said is nothing new. What would be helpful would be any specific tweaks you use with your sysprep installs.
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Post by ENU_user » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:02 am

can you boot using Enable vga mode ?
instead of selecting Safe Mode ,choose Enable vga mode and change resolution to the defaults or using the prompt "your display setting are wrong would you like winxp to try and correct them for you" by clicking yes ..set refresh rate to 60hz
this sets the display settings behavior for the next following norlmal boot
was just curious if this can provide a fix for some who encounter this prob right now?

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Post by mr_smartepants » Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:25 pm

VGA mode wouldn't have helped my situation. The blackscreen appeared even before I had loaded the ATI drivers.
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Post by RogueSpear » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:27 am

Well build 401 doesn't help this situation at all. And this time my little safe mode trifecta of run the client, crap cleaner, ntregopt didn't fix it. So then I went back to safe mode, ran Autoruns and this time I got a complete listing of everything. Previously I ran an older version on Autoruns in safe mode, so perhaps that explains the incomplete listing I experienced previously.

I would have stepped through this one piece at a time to find the exact entry, but I had to get this laptop out of the office ASAP. Unchecked all Symantec entries and presto, it works again.

Going to see if I can get this particular RIS install to lock up a VMware and then step by step uncheck the Symantec entries until it boots up.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that after unchecking all of the SAV entries in Autoruns and successfully booting, I then checked all of the SAV entried (re-enabled them) and the laptop continued to boot fine.

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Post by RyanVM » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:36 am

That edit is very intriguing. It would be interesting to power cycle that system after "fixing" to see if we can make it reappear.

BTW, I've decided that I will be postponing the next release until this problem is solved. I can't justify putting a release with a known bug such as this one. In my eyes, it would be irresponsible to do so.
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Post by RogueSpear » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:43 am

Yea I don't get it really. When I got my first successful boot, it did that "Customizing User Settings" or something similar where it appears to be setting options for IE, OE, WMP.

Also this laptop did not have a video driver installed as it's not yet covered in the BTS DriverPacks (it's an S3 Savage IX). I know someone else mentioned booting into VGA mode. Well this was VGA mode and it still hung on me.

I have a RIS install going on a VM right now, to the same OU as my last two installs that hung. If this one does the same thing, I'm going to use Autoruns to try out each Symantec entry one by one until it boots.

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Post by creep in the cellar » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:44 pm

did anyone try a windows xp sp2 disk with zero updates and no nlite or anything else. just a plain xp sp2 and then install SCS 3.1.

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Post by creep in the cellar » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:51 pm

okay with a virgin xp sp2 disc only updates put on are to allow windows updates to work. no dot net of any kind. i am at windows updates and have 45 crtical updates and 9 software updates. good news is SCS works fine with no updates. bad news is much work still to be done. so i think first update will be WGA notifcation. then the slow process of 1by1 updates.

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Post by dumpydooby » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:03 pm

SCS and SAV cause this problem?

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