[RESOLVED] Update pack causes blackscreen after splashscreen

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Åmbrosius
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Post by Åmbrosius » Mon May 22, 2006 6:03 pm

RogueSpear wrote:@Åmbrosius, are you running any third party firewall software? Or have a huge HOST file?
Nope. Well, not on that final install anyway. Nothing but 2.0.6 and an SP2 source. So God knows where it found room to go wrong. Pity he aint sharing the knowledge though.


Anyway, I'm sorry to say that my bug's definately not the same one, 'cause it's pretty much gone away now. I tried update pack 2.0.5, booted without hastle, and used WinUpdates to grab everythinhg it wanted (KB890830, KB913580, KB911565 and the somewhat controversial KB905474) and restarted without a hitch. I still get the black screen after the logo for maybe 15 seconds, which never used to happen, but the welcome screen pops up soon after. So I guess I can live with an extra 30sec boot time, ten minutes was definately pushing it though.
Guess I'll just skip 2.0.6 and hope that whatever doesn't like my system accidentally gets fixed at some point, as I aint bright enough to figure it out, and certainly not patient enough to try without VMWare being an option.
Now to just put everything else back, and one more install :) Is it just me or is there ALWAYS one more install?
Thanks again all. All your hard work and knowledge are much appreciated.

Good luck.

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Post by RyanVM » Mon May 22, 2006 6:14 pm

I'm wondering if KB905474 is causing your problem. It runs on every login AFAIK.
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Post by RogueSpear » Wed May 24, 2006 1:04 pm

The latest in my efforts.. After screwing around for days I began to notice some subtle differences between installs via RIS vs. installs from CD (iso image). I couldn't find anything definitive or prove it, but I speculate that my install source had some kind of corruption for CD/DVD installs. Around this time, something made me view the SMART info on my D drive and it indicated "good" health - as opposed to the expected "very good". So I wiped the drive, let it SpinRite over night and started over with an XP Gold VLK CD.

Things are a little better now, but I'm still having all manner of weirdness. I'm finding it more difficult now to recreate the black screen issue, but something more distrurbing is showing up. On some installs, IE is not registered as the default web browser. When I go to IE's directory, iexplore.exe is nowhere to be found. If I got Start Menu/Run and type in iexplore.exe, sure enough IE fires up and I can even make it the default web browser. If I do a search of the hard disk for iexplore.exe, it's not found anywhere :shock: I'm wondering if this is a common problem that I simply haven't read about or missed a thread somewhere.

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Post by techtype » Wed May 24, 2006 1:16 pm

RogueSpear wrote:The latest in my efforts.. After screwing around for days I began to notice some subtle differences between installs via RIS vs. installs from CD (iso image). I couldn't find anything definitive or prove it, but I speculate that my install source had some kind of corruption for CD/DVD installs. Around this time, something made me view the SMART info on my D drive and it indicated "good" health - as opposed to the expected "very good". So I wiped the drive, let it SpinRite over night and started over with an XP Gold VLK CD.

Things are a little better now, but I'm still having all manner of weirdness. I'm finding it more difficult now to recreate the black screen issue, but something more distrurbing is showing up. On some installs, IE is not registered as the default web browser. When I go to IE's directory, iexplore.exe is nowhere to be found. If I got Start Menu/Run and type in iexplore.exe, sure enough IE fires up and I can even make it the default web browser. If I do a search of the hard disk for iexplore.exe, it's not found anywhere :shock: I'm wondering if this is a common problem that I simply haven't read about or missed a thread somewhere.
Good to hear back from you as I'm very interested in this thread. (Although I've never seen this problem) Did you start using nlite again? I've read some posts over there about the Internet Explorer problem you describe.
Last edited by techtype on Wed May 24, 2006 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by RogueSpear » Wed May 24, 2006 1:19 pm

No, nLite is on a shelf until I get everything squared away. I just got off the phone with a friend of mine I do some consulting with. I was describing this problem with IE to him and he said he just got the exact same issue at a law firm that uses RIS - and they're not using the Update Pack or anything else like it. So I guess it's Google time.

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Post by deadman » Wed May 24, 2006 1:27 pm

has anyone removed the alerter or the security center services?
i just did a clean install using rvm integrator:-
1) integrated pack 2.0.6 & aserone's wga removal addon
2)integrated wmp10 2.5 & uxtheme addon
then installed, install sav 10.1, hey presto, no black screen.

then, using nlite rc8 removed some components but kept alerter & security center services, integrated kttaddons & royale addon again using nlite. added a special wga? addon then re-installed. installed sav 10.1 & again no black screen

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Post by RogueSpear » Thu May 25, 2006 2:12 pm

I just had this pop up on a computer that's been installed for about a month now. And it couldn't have happened to a worse machine either. I need an outside agency to come in and reinstall some proprietary software once I get it back up again. And then who's to say it won't happen again?

I've spent hours searching for a way to revive this thing with no luck at all. If we can't figure this out soon, I'm changing careers.

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Post by RyanVM » Thu May 25, 2006 2:39 pm

Can you get into Windows if you do a system restore?
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Post by RogueSpear » Thu May 25, 2006 2:45 pm

I disable System Restore through group policy. I have the thing RISing as we speak. I had to make a decision as to whether or not to make an appointment for someone to come in tommorow to install their software. And their offices close in about 15 minutes.. sooo..

BTW this is the first time I've ever had a perfectly functioning system have this problem crop up. Previously it was always a problem right from get go. So this really instills a lot of confidence in me regarding recent installs.

I tried pretty much everything I could think of to get it back online again. Disabled some services, scanned the registry for errors. Of course there is no indication of a problem in the event log or anywhere else I looked.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Thu May 25, 2006 2:47 pm

RogueSpear wrote: I've spent hours searching for a way to revive this thing with no luck at all. If we can't figure this out soon, I'm changing careers.
I've had limited luck by booting into safe mode then setting the hard drive to do a disk scan (hard drive properties/Tools tab/Check now button/Automatically fix file system errors checked/OK/Restart.
This fixed a few items during the 'security verifiers?' check. Then I could boot normally for one or two restarts but the black screen would be back.
Try disconnecting the affected machine from any networks while you troubleshoot this and recover files.

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Post by RogueSpear » Thu May 25, 2006 2:52 pm

I did the hard disk scan part of it. The thing is I can recreate this sometimes in VMware. I have a snapshot from the last install that is in this condition so that I can try pretty much everything with impunity. The first thing that is aggravating is that I can't find any logs of any kind with information that would be helpful. The second is that through process of elimination I still have not been able to reliably pin down what it is. I've had lots of theories and a few "AHA!" moments, but nothing is panning out. I'm now pretty well backed up in work, so running an endless amount test installs just isn't feasible for me anymore.

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Post by RyanVM » Thu May 25, 2006 2:59 pm

I'm going to really try to attack this problem over the weekend, so I'll let you know what I can figure out.
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Post by RogueSpear » Thu May 25, 2006 3:07 pm

I had been keeping of list of switchless silent installers, reg tweaks, actions taken, etc. that appeared to be safe. But I think that list is all but invalid now that I've had a long standing install die on me. Now if the computer works just fine after installaiton, I have to wonder "for how long"?

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Post by RyanVM » Thu May 25, 2006 3:18 pm

Do you have a list of surefire programs that cause it every time? Am I right that SAV 10.1 always does?
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Post by mr_smartepants » Thu May 25, 2006 3:19 pm

I remember reading somewhere on the M$ beta website regarding Vista volume licensing keys and it mentioned that VLKs were the largest source of license misuse/piracy that the only future version of Vista that would employ VLKs would be the Business edition (for obvious reasons).
I'm willing to bet a case of beer :D that the root of this problem is M$ WGA and all it's iterations.
M$ is just force-deploying this new license enforcement by making all WinXP users beta-testers for the new Vista requirements.
Conspiracy theory? Your thoughts?

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Post by mr_smartepants » Thu May 25, 2006 3:20 pm

RyanVM wrote:Do you have a list of surefire programs that cause it every time? Am I right that SAV 10.1 always does?
I'm using SAV 10.1 (part of SCS 3.1) right now on both my machines and both are running just peachy!

Anyone have a net packet/port sniffer handy?

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Post by RogueSpear » Thu May 25, 2006 3:32 pm

No, SAV 10.1 does not seem to be a sure thing for this problem. I'm beginning to think mr_smartepants is on to something though. This computer that went down is a "special" computer that is not a member of an OU. One of the consequences of that is that the computer has Automatic Updates set to On and they d/l and install automatically without user intervention. The rest of my network I have configured to look at my SUS server. I haven't authorized any updates in ages, so most of the machines here do not have a recent version of WGA on them.

As a matter of interest, the one that died had the notification utility installed, but it was still using LegitCheck 526, not 530. I manually threw 530 on there in safe mode as an act of desperation, but it didn't help.

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Post by RogueSpear » Thu May 25, 2006 3:35 pm

RogueSpear wrote:On some installs, IE is not registered as the default web browser. When I go to IE's directory, iexplore.exe is nowhere to be found. If I got Start Menu/Run and type in iexplore.exe, sure enough IE fires up and I can even make it the default web browser. If I do a search of the hard disk for iexplore.exe, it's not found anywhere
I found that with the above issue, iexplore.exe is in fact there, but for some reason it is superhidden and I have no way of unhiding it.

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Post by RogueSpear » Thu May 25, 2006 6:31 pm

What are you guys thinking about the sudden out of cycle release of an update to WGA ? I don't want to sound conspiratorial here, but the update really came out of nowhere. I've done a few installs where I replaced LegitCheck in RVM2.0.6 with the new version that came out two days ago and haven't had any issues yet with those installs. The disclaimer is that those installs, so far, do not have any Symantec products on them.

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Post by 5eraph » Thu May 25, 2006 8:15 pm

I'd say that maybe MS knew about this problem (if indeed it is related to WGA). As far as I know all WGA updates were issued out of cycle except February's so this speculation is way out on a limb.

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Post by techtype » Thu May 25, 2006 8:22 pm

RogueSpear wrote:What are you guys thinking about the sudden out of cycle release of an update to WGA ? I don't want to sound conspiratorial here, but the update really came out of nowhere. I've done a few installs where I replaced LegitCheck in RVM2.0.6 with the new version that came out two days ago and haven't had any issues yet with those installs. The disclaimer is that those installs, so far, do not have any Symantec products on them.
I think you're going to have to be able to either generate a consistently bad install and then be able to change something and get a consistently good install or you're going to have to be able to fix a bad install. Only then will you have the answer.

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Post by Alanoll » Thu May 25, 2006 11:05 pm

So, i've been working with RyanVM to trace this down but I can't manage to reproduce it.

@RougeSpear: Could you upload somewhere an ISO of an image that DOES cause this to happen so that I can track this? Don't worry about serials, I won't steal them. Also, ANY instructions you have to duplicate it using the ISO.

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Post by RogueSpear » Thu May 25, 2006 11:07 pm

I'm verifying an .iso right now. That is, verifying that it causes a hang everytime.

EDIT: Typical. I'm throwing everything I got into making an .iso that installs a defective system and now I can't get one to hang on boot at all. I'm hopeful to have one sometime today.

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Post by techtype » Fri May 26, 2006 11:15 am

RogueSpear wrote:I'm verifying an .iso right now. That is, verifying that it causes a hang everytime.

EDIT: Typical. I'm throwing everything I got into making an .iso that installs a defective system and now I can't get one to hang on boot at all. I'm hopeful to have one sometime today.
I would like to try to diagnose the ISO also, if you get one!
We have faith in you. :)

Edit: I never thought I'd ask for a bad ISO. :lol:

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Post by RogueSpear » Fri May 26, 2006 11:33 am

I never thought I'd be trying to make one.

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Post by RogueSpear » Sun May 28, 2006 8:14 pm

Ok, I'm back on the case of intentionally trying to make a screwed up .iso image. I can't believe that I had the hardest time making a good image and now I'm having the same degree of difficulty getting a bad one. Computers.. our friend.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Mon May 29, 2006 2:17 am

RogueSpear wrote:Computers.. our friend.
ROTFL!
Our best friends make the worst enemies or the best nemesis! :lol:

I wish I had the resources to help out.

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Post by orcoxp » Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 pm

Wow, I know this is sorta off topic...but just look at this!

Look at how many people are interested in helping on this!
I spend more time checking back on this thread than I even did in the hospital with my ex-girlfriend that had cancer!

What a great group of people...I'm not quite sure I fit in here...lol
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Post by RyanVM » Mon May 29, 2006 10:35 pm

I haven't heard from anybody who's actually tried working their way up through the versions, though
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Post by ByThor » Tue May 30, 2006 5:00 am

I created a disk using RVMUpdatePack 2.0.6, RVMAddons 1.6.4 and RVMAddonsWMP 2.5. This was done using the Integrator 1.2.2 and then using NLite for driver integration and tweaks. When I loaded Symantec 10.1 I had the blackscreen also. I went back and re-made the disk several times. Every time I left off the DCOM tweaks I would not have the Symantec problem. The way Symantec 10.X is integrated into the networking portion of XP, I believe it loads before networking and then cannot communicate with the system correctly if the DCOM tweaks are used.

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Post by RogueSpear » Tue May 30, 2006 9:09 am

Yea, I've discovered that SAV is one hell of an operating system molester. Just take a look at what Autoruns reports. Symantec looks like they're trying to close in on Microsoft on how many times you can touch a system - and that's only for an AntiVirus product.

I at one point was able to get the hang up on 2.0.5 and 2.0.6 only, nothing earlier. Others however have seen it with 2.0.4. I'm at a point now trying to make a bad image, that I'm going to start using nLite again. I'm just hoping that either the removal of something or the patching of uxtheme.dll / tcpip.sys will instigate the issue again so I can finally look into it further.

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Post by techtype » Tue May 30, 2006 10:02 am

RogueSpear wrote:I'm just hoping that either the removal of something or the patching of uxtheme.dll / tcpip.sys will instigate the issue again so I can finally look into it further.
Hmmm, I don't patch tcpip.sys and have not seen the issue. That does sound like a possible weird interaction between wga and tcpip would be a possability. Remember the ultra-weird notepad problem.

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Post by RyanVM » Tue May 30, 2006 10:37 am

Alanoll's theory is that it's having problems setting the right resolution, FWIW. Of course, he has yet to reproduce it on his own system.
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Post by RogueSpear » Tue May 30, 2006 10:43 am

That would almost seem to be a video driver issue (maybe). But this has happened on a wide range of hardware for me, including VMware.

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Post by RogueSpear » Tue May 30, 2006 11:38 am

Well I've thrown everything I got into this one. I've tried every permutation and combination I can come up with. The closest I can get now is that it hangs after the splash screen on the first reboot after the first logon to completion. BUT, when I reset it, it then boots up fine. I've thrown in SAV, PerfectDisk, defragment the registry, offline defrag the hard disk, compress some directories with NTFS compression, old WGA, new WGA, hacked WGA and on and on. The bit of strangeness that persists however is having no registered web browser (iexplorer.exe is supperhidden), but that will be for another day. I'm throwing in the towel on this one.

As a friend once told me - "You can never rule out demonic posession"

EDIT: Ok, it looks as though I have a VMware install that hangs on every other reboot. More clearly, you reboot and it hangs. Hit reset, get the option to go to safe mode, chose normal boot and it boots. This may be as close as I'm going to get.

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Post by RyanVM » Tue May 30, 2006 1:16 pm

I managed to get to happen on a recent install with SAV 10.1. It took a couple reboots after installing it, but it works.

One thing I recommend is to power cycle the computer for a long period of time. An easy way to do that is to set it to autologon (with TweakUI or by some other method). Then create a shortcut in the startup folder on the start menu for PsShutdown using the following command line:

Code: Select all

psshutdown -r -t 10 -f -m "Restarting."
It's got a 10 second timer, so you can abort the shutdown if you want (just do run "psshutdown -a" from a command prompt (or start...run) to abort).

Anyway, that'll continually power cycle your system without requiring any intervention.
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Post by ENU_user » Tue May 30, 2006 1:36 pm

could b related some how to the parts of dcom ole main ,sens ,events ,Task Scheduler known to b also used alot with av's carrying tasks

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Post by RogueSpear » Tue May 30, 2006 2:04 pm

My plan had been to get a VM locking on every single boot, get it into safe mode, take a snapshot, and replace files one by one with the SP2 files, but with it booting properly every other time, it's going to take twice as long to accomplish. Ryan, have you started doing that with your busted image?

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Post by RyanVM » Tue May 30, 2006 4:51 pm

I was planning on attacking it from the other direction, actually (different XP installs until I find the culprit file), since there's no guarantees that reverting to an RTM file will fix the problem once it's appeared. We really don't know enough about the nature of the problem to know for sure if that'll work.
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Post by biatche » Wed May 31, 2006 8:52 pm

one of my clients complained about some black screen, now i thought it could be related to the latest cd build i made.. now that was a month ago or so, and i know i used 2.0.5. i have yet to test with 2.0.6

i dont think this issue is SCS related... i think there's another culprit. i dont got a list now that i'm on a new build.

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Post by creep in the cellar » Wed May 31, 2006 11:12 pm

well i have created same results with SCS 3.1 and update packs 2.0.1-2.0.6. the one thing is my xp build that was from ryans pack 2.0.2a black screen with SCS 3.1 and with SCS 3.0.2. now tried a build with SCS 3.1 and no WGA notification still black screen. then tried same build with no WGA notification and SCS 3.0.2 and no black screens.

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Post by RyanVM » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:04 am

What that's telling me is that the root cause of this problem goes way back. Goody :rolleyes:
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Post by mr_smartepants » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:55 am

RyanVM wrote:What that's telling me is that the root cause of this problem goes way back. Goody :rolleyes:
Damn, I guess I'm out a case of beer. :cry:
Who's thirsty?

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Post by creep in the cellar » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:09 am

now with SCS 3.1 or SCS 3.0.2 black screen unless i use build from feb 2006 with wga notification. that build uses ryans 2.0.2a. removbe wga notificatins on that build and SCS 3.1 does not work but SCS 3.0.2 does work and no black screen.

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Post by mr_smartepants » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:18 am

creep in the cellar wrote:now with SCS 3.1 or SCS 3.0.2 black screen unless i use build from feb 2006 with wga notification. that build uses ryans 2.0.2a. removbe wga notificatins on that build and SCS 3.1 does not work but SCS 3.0.2 does work and no black screen.
Could you list specifically what packs/addons you're using to duplicate the black screen? Also list what combinations do NOT have the black screen.
Have you narrowed it down to one pack + SCS?

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Post by creep in the cellar » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:37 am

well i use many addons made bymyself and from the forums. the only thing that is new and seems to be causing this for me is WGA notifcation in combination with SCS. i tried an build with just ryan's pack and wga notification, SCS 3.1-3.0.2 and got same thing. BLACK SCREEN. did that using ryans packs 2.0.1-2.0.6. now when i did not use wga notification and used ryans packs 2.0.1-2.0.2a along with SCS 3.0.2 no black screens. i am sure i did not remove anything that would cause SCS not to function. when i went into safe mode to disable SCS everything goes back to normal no black screens. event log did show when black screen did happen these driver files did not start when they were suppose to. amdk7, fips, savrt, savrtpel, symtdi. the last 3 are specific to SCS starting and running as it should. so as long as SCS did not start even with wga notifcations i got no black screen. let it start and bam back to blackness.

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Post by biatche » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:43 am

so which are the suspicious ones now?

wga notification (i chose not to install wga notification and not to show up in update list)
scs

anything else?

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Post by mr_smartepants » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:15 pm

So is there anyone else besides me that's seen this problem WITHOUT SCS installed?
Hmmm. :?
I'm positive my issue was with MS licensing interpretations being different than my interpretations. :oops:
I'll try reloading XP on my laptop this weekend for testing (different HD so I don't bork my existing install). Ryan, what order would you like me to try? 2.06 to 2.05, and so on? WGA on, WGA off? SCS on, SCS off?
I have a copy of the 2.06 cab modified (not by RyanVM) without WGA I can use as well (grabbed before the thread was locked).

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RyanVM
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Post by RyanVM » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:18 pm

Try working your way up with the versions I posted.
Get up to $200 off on hosting from the same people who host this website!
http://www.ryanvm.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2357

creep in the cellar
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Post by creep in the cellar » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:27 pm

i am starting to think this is microsofts way of keeping us from using symantec products. remember java stuff that happened. omg so many problems with windows and java for awhile. now the whole onecare and norton 360. okay wait for my next updates on conspiracy theories. hahahahahaha..... SCS 3.1 just does not work no matter what i do. gawd put me out of my misery. or give me some morphine so i die peacefully.



the one thing i have not tried is doing this with an untouched xp and then doing everything the old way. the long way. a fresh xp,updates, programs one by one. then lets see what happens. i personaly don't think ryans pack is the culprit. unless WGA blah blah is the culprit. okay back to pulling more hairs.

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