Post-SP1 updates repo that isn't incomplete or 404?

Windows 7 Update Pack discussion.
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cactus
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Post-SP1 updates repo that isn't incomplete or 404?

Post by cactus » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:13 pm

I just downloaded hotfix downloader 5.1 after trying everything else, and looked up some other lists. The downloader list for 7 x64 is incomplete(missing this months updates and a lot of random ones like KB2584146, most .NET, WUA update etc..). The online repositories are either extremely outdated, 404, abandoned, or even more incomplete.

Why is everything around post-SP1 NT6 done so poorly? Most tools that do NT6 integration only put a UI to CMD tools and automate nothing, all update repo management is either completely abandoned or mostly inconsistent and unreliable.

Is there a reason people are still putting so much effort into NT5/the-make-me-a-botnet-zombie-please OS that nobody doing real deployment even touches? Shouldn't it be the other way around??

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5eraph
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Post by 5eraph » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:40 pm

SoLoR's list used to be fairly well maintained, at least as of 2012/04/09 when last I checked. I'll assume you've already investigated the links he's provided.

I can't speak for those maintaining NT6 tools and lists. All I can really say is that Microsoft has made it clear that it will not be waiting as long between OS releases as it did between XP and Vista. Perhaps this is the reason for Win7 abandonment; Win8.1 is out.

XP had plenty of time to become entrenched. I still use XP--albeit the x64 variety--as my primary OS. And I do not consider my use of it an invitation to become a botnet zombie. ;)

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Post by mooms » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:37 pm


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Post by 5eraph » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:14 pm

Thanks for that, mooms. I haven't checked WinCert in quite a while. :)

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Post by mooms » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:02 pm


cactus
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Post by cactus » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:02 pm

Is anyone working on an all in one post-sp1 pack for 7? That way anyone who wants to do deployment doesn't have to scrape multiple lists and set up switches and unpack for literally hundreds of update binaries?

Packs are still being done for XP and security holes aren't even patched and hardware support doesn't exist for it any more. Which means an up-to-date xp sp3 deployment image is pretty much worthless to anyone except hobbyists now..

FYI x64 driver signing and DEP have been handled by botnets and exploits for years now.. Even script kiddy malware handle x64 and signing-bypass now.. MS hasn't patched the way they do it since the first was discovered ~3 years ago either..

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Post by bphlpt » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:14 am

Short answer - No.

Long answer - Win7 handles updates differently than XP, so update packs aren't appropriate like they were in XP. You are better off learning to use some of the various tools. Once you download the updates you wish, there are tools available, like KUC, to run against either your existing install or an offline WIM that can tell you which of the updates are now obsolete and can be deleted and which ones are missing that you now need to download and can then do it for you. The first link that mooms listed in his first post above is the closest to a "pack" that I am aware of. It is updated regularly and should meet your needs for GDR updates, but AFAIK I believe it is still a collection of updates and not just one .exe. Regardless of how you obtain your updates, using a tool like Win Toolkit makes it fairly painless and automated to integrate into your new install medium.

Cheers and Regards

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Post by 5eraph » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:39 am

Nobody's asking you to use XP, cactus. I'm not trying to troll you. You asked for a reason and I gave you one. ;)

The replies from mooms and bphlpt should help satisfy your request for Win7 support. Do they not?

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Post by mooms » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:46 am

I wished Win Vista and up were like XP, where you can directly update the files on the CD, it is the most efficient way of updating the install image, but MS have decided to do it differently.

Actual files are stored in a wim file, think of it as a compressed image of the installation.
This wim image must be mounted with MS tools, (Image X & DISM) then it can be "offline updated", but updated files don't replace old ones like with XP.

There is also an other way, called "reverse integration" or "online integration": You install your Windows image, install everything you want, configure it, etc, do a sysprep to remove users profile, then finally save it as a wim image. But again that will not replace older files.

Maybe nuhi, with the successor of nLite, will find a way to integrate updates in Win7 and Win8 like we do in XP with nLite & RVMi but that's unlikely.


Lego will integrate WHD update lists in a next release of Win Toolkit, so it will be even simplier to use it

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Post by ricktendo64 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:59 pm

mooms wrote:updated files don't replace old ones like with XP.
Of course they are, they are replaced but are backed up in winsxs (I think this is what you dont like)

In Windows 8.1 they made it so you can make the new files permanent using /ResetBase

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Post by mooms » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:56 pm

yes that's what I meant of course. winsxs bloat is legendary....
Don't knew for Windows 8.1, thanks for the info.
MS should have added that option since Vista though....
Maybe they will backport the option in 7, like for 2852386 (very unlikely I know)....

Do you think it is possible to use /resetbase on Windows 7 if we use win 8.1 version of dism ?
edit: tried the command on a win7 VM with 8.1 dism: that don't work, it popup some error message about something missing in the kernel...

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Post by cactus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:27 am

Most people including me already know how to use the tools. The problem, and the reason I made this thread, is the unpacking and switch writing for literally hundreds of updates; after you've scraped them from multiple broken and unreliable lists.. Having a tool that just integrates them after you've done that isn't really automated and is already provided by MS..

I think the solution is a tool that uses DISM but also streams an accurate update list with switches in the XML meta and a unpack routine. I may work on this on my spare time, but there are people dedicated to this who COULD do it faster.. It's just as practical as it is for the unsupported and obsolete OS that sees heavy production now, you just get a product professionals and productive users can actually use..

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Post by Kelsenellenelvian » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:37 am

People have made and mantained lists and packs but no-one wanted to help with hosting or even basic mantienance.

Thusly they quit, it's simply too much of a drain for anyone to keep up...

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Post by Kelsenellenelvian » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:44 am

Also @ 90% or so of the win7 updates are very simply just added with dism there is not a need for everything you think there is.

You simply tell dism to add it. No switches, no unpacking none of that old shit.

Wintoolkit does add a full list of updates automatically, you obviously don't know how to use these tools as well as your alluding to.

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Post by cactus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:25 pm

Kelsenellenelvian wrote:Also @ 90% or so of the win7 updates are very simply just added with dism there is not a need for everything you think there is.

You simply tell dism to add it. No switches, no unpacking none of that old shit.

Wintoolkit does add a full list of updates automatically, you obviously don't know how to use these tools as well as your alluding to.
I do. Else I wouldn't know which specific updates are missing from the lists and that DISM doesn't do all updates, most need switches passed and/or unpacked as well; at least to do a proper pack.

Patches are released once a month, and people doing post-SP3 are doing fine with both tools and packs and -zero- paid hosting.. Seems like a cop out, and it's not made obvious cause the people who WILL do the work are already working and have to divide the work of building the pack, so their product/distro will take longer and there is a illusion that this is 'hard'..

When/IF I do get a pack done and managable I'll be sure to note the economics of it to make it obvious that it has nothing to do with finances and rigor. I could do it inside a business week if I dedicated myself to it in the evenings; it's ~60% downloading..

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Post by Kelsenellenelvian » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:36 pm

It's not hard at all with win7 that's my point.

However getting a host with unlimited bandwidth that can bear hundreds of simultaneous downloads of packages that are easily 500+ megs in size of ms non redistribution files is nearly impossible anymore.

Everyone that's made a win7 pack has quit due to hot linkers and lack of support.

The win7 UPDATES (not extras like . Net) come in msu or cab format and don't need switches or unpacking.

You are copping out. Tell me exactly how WHD, KUC and/or Wintoolkit are failing you. I have made many updated win7 ISO with extremely little effort on my part. The only things I had to enter where disk and folder paths and wait.

You are also confusing things like .net 4 and mse as updates, they aren't updates at all.

People aren't going to shell out hundreds a month and man hours any more. They don't get the support they need for the effort they put forth.

Also please bear in mind that what you may see as missed fixes could very well be fixes that are superseded by newer fixes or request only fixes that are hard to obtain. The only way to be sure is to take what you find as a "Current" list and integrate them all, then run mu.

MS knowledge bases are famous for being grossly misleading and horribly maintained.

I have seen and watched a couple of the better win7 packs and repositories go down. They were made in good faith and then hotlinked from several areas around the world by "Script-kiddies" the drain on a server by such a pack is enough to bring most of them down. Win7 is a different world because ms is not making any more sp's for it and quickly trying to bury it.

MSFN and WinCert have received CaD letters from ms for hosting multiple types of win7 files. Such as .net packs and hotfixes. WinCert even had the adsense cancelled by ms and had to fight to get it brought back.

MSFN received letters about xp update packs they no longer allow those there.

Logistically they type of pack you are proposing would be in the 1+ gig size and you would need a sever that could handle thousands of people downloading it daily.

IF you could find a server that wouldn't be brought to a crawl by this demand and didn't mind MS crawling up their ass they would likely want a good amount of money monthly for the trouble of hosting it.

BTW KB2584146 is a wmp update and the files in it are actually included in the newer installation packages of WMP.

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Post by cactus » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:38 pm

Kelsenellenelvian wrote:It's not hard at all with win7 that's my point.

However getting a host with unlimited bandwidth that can bear hundreds of simultaneous downloads of packages that are easily 500+ megs in size of ms non redistribution files is nearly impossible anymore.

Everyone that's made a win7 pack has quit due to hot linkers and lack of support.

The win7 UPDATES (not extras like . Net) come in msu or cab format and don't need switches or unpacking.

You are copping out. Tell me exactly how WHD, KUC and/or Wintoolkit are failing you. I have made many updated win7 ISO with extremely little effort on my part. The only things I had to enter where disk and folder paths and wait.

You are also confusing things like .net 4 and mse as updates, they aren't updates at all.

People aren't going to shell out hundreds a month and man hours any more. They don't get the support they need for the effort they put forth.

Also please bear in mind that what you may see as missed fixes could very well be fixes that are superseded by newer fixes or request only fixes that are hard to obtain. The only way to be sure is to take what you find as a "Current" list and integrate them all, then run mu.

MS knowledge bases are famous for being grossly misleading and horribly maintained.

I have seen and watched a couple of the better win7 packs and repositories go down. They were made in good faith and then hotlinked from several areas around the world by "Script-kiddies" the drain on a server by such a pack is enough to bring most of them down. Win7 is a different world because ms is not making any more sp's for it and quickly trying to bury it.

MSFN and WinCert have received CaD letters from ms for hosting multiple types of win7 files. Such as .net packs and hotfixes. WinCert even had the adsense cancelled by ms and had to fight to get it brought back.

MSFN received letters about xp update packs they no longer allow those there.

Logistically they type of pack you are proposing would be in the 1+ gig size and you would need a sever that could handle thousands of people downloading it daily.

IF you could find a server that wouldn't be brought to a crawl by this demand and didn't mind MS crawling up their ass they would likely want a good amount of money monthly for the trouble of hosting it.

BTW KB2584146 is a wmp update and the files in it are actually included in the newer installation packages of WMP.
Almost nobody outside commercial entities do downloads off their own servers. Onepiece has been using free file hosting for years, for example for a ~200MB archive.. This is why this seems like an obvious cop out.. I can go mirror to 20+ free file hosts right now with one upload..

Using fictional logistics as a reason to not do something is too obvious, and while integrating IS easy, billions of people having to scrape and hand-audit hundreds of update binaries from multiple loosely referenced broken lists while there are communities and people dedicated to providing such product, is kind of dumb. Why even have a 7 section, just to provide utilities packs that are out of date in a matter of weeks to be slipstreamed into deployment sources that are so old they conjest networks and consume significant amounts of hours to do network based updates?

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Post by mooms » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:31 pm

I can go mirror to 20+ free file hosts right now with one upload..
Let me laugh!
That's more "20+ 'free' file hosts with tons of ads and malwares", and if you manage to get the actual file you're looking for, you'll end up with an anemic download rate...
The only free file service with decent speed, decent file size limitation, and with not any ads is mega.co.nz. In fact I don't know how they are making money. Maybe they don't.
The second choice is mediafire, but they have ads (easily avoided if you use the right tools) and a file-size limit of 200MB for free users, not very convenient when you want to share update packs that weighs several hundreds of megabytes...

Anyway, uploading/hosting the updates is only a part of the equation, and this part can even be avoided by creating "update lists" rather than "update packs", (with urls pointing on MS servers). There is already two programs with this purpose that I'm aware of: WHD and WUD.


But if it's so easy, then, instead of ranting, make your "perfect" update pack, list, or repository, and keep it updated. 6 months. One year. Two years. Until the end.
Share it it with "billion of people" (lol) without asking any money (sometimes you will have a thanks).
Don't forget you have to do one for x86, and another for x64.
Don't forget some updates can't be integrated.
Don't forget you also need to test the actual integration and installation before releasing, because you don't want to cause troubles to your "users" (that's what I do, I have updated my packs today btw).



I've chosen to maintain GDR-only (WU satisfy if you prefer) update packs, because that's what I use.
But I can stop tomorrow if I'm bored, or too busy with real life, or if MS want my packs down.
To my point of view, they are "perfect", because for me, the only purpose of an update pack is to have an up-to-date image (=zero update on WU...until next month!), not to have a collection of more than 500 KB integrated. Seriously WTF ?

I actually don't see the point of integrating/installing every KB Microsoft releases for a particular edition of Windows, for me that's looking for problems, and that don't worth the hassle, neither for the pack/list maintainer or the "end user".
while integrating IS easy, billions of people having to scrape and hand-audit hundreds of update binaries from multiple loosely referenced broken lists while there are communities and people dedicated to providing such product, is kind of dumb.
Do you really think "billions of people" are looking for integrating every KB they can found ? again, let me laugh !

More seriously, maybe you are not in the right place, you should try here: http://www.patchmanagement.org/

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Post by Kelsenellenelvian » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:33 am

Wow.... I'm speechless at your arragance

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Post by Kelsenellenelvian » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:56 am

"Using fictional logistics as a reason to not"
Facts
  • 1= There are well over 1gig worth of updates for each architecture of win7 sp1.

    2= Even a extremely well made pack is going to be at least a gig in size.

    3= There are 11 standard versions of windows 7.

    4= There are 400-700 hot fixes total (from windows 7 starter to windows 7 ultimate).

    5= There are NO free hosts for files 1+ gig in size.

    6= You are not going to be able to make this in your free time in a week (with testing of all 11 versions)

    7= Once you make it are you really going to maintain it once a month AT LEAST?

    8= Even the XP packs have NOTHING to do with switches. You still have no clue how they are built. (Crash course each update is UNPACKED and the files and registry entries are added to a xp source.)
P.S. You're still full of shit about all of them needing unpacked and needing switches.

This is the DISM for msu and cab updates:
/Add-Package /PackagePath:< path_to_cabfile> [/IgnoreCheck] [ /PreventPending]
Installs a specified .cab or .msu package in the image. Multiple packages can be added on one command line. The applicability of each package will be checked. If the package is cannot be applied to the specified image, you will receive an error message. Use the /IgnoreCheck argument if you want the command to process without checking the applicability of each package.
Use the /PreventPending option to skip the installation of the package if the package or Windows image has pending online actions. This option can only be used when servicing Windows 8, Windows Server 2012, or Windows® Preinstallation Environment (Windows PE) 4.0 images.
/PackagePath can point to:
A single .cab or .msu file.

A folder that contains a single expanded .cab file.

A folder that contains a single .msu file.

A folder that contains multiple .cab or .msu files.
Look at that last line "A folder that contains multiple .cab or .msu files" where does it say ANYTHING about unpacking and switches?

Also the only hot fix you referred to as missing is superseded by the newer Windows Media Player installation downloads.

You really have no clue what your talking about. You are also ignoring most of all of the posts here and only trolling by arguing with the parts you THINK you know about.

So you are telling us you can make and maintain two 1+gig update packs (x86 and x64) and easily maintain them? Well step up then....

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Post by bitoolean » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:31 am

Someone managed to piss Kel off again... :evil: Take it easy on cactus he's apparently new to the game.
It indeed is arrogant to tell experienced uploaders that they are making things up when they say free hosts will remove files that generate too much traffic though. Why do people even expect things to be for free. The web isn't a completely separate world you know...
And, when you get to a poker table, don't go all-in right away with a low card in hand!

"If you have time to whine and complain about something then you have the time to do something about it." (Anthony J. D'Angelo)

I don't understand what he's complaining about either anyway. You want a repack of updates, all-in-one, as with XP? Then what do any update switches have to do with it... Maybe you want to make a pack yourself and batch-install them? Then why not give an example of an update that needs a special switch! Or if you don't, and use a helper application to integrate them, then just contact its author, I'm sure they'll be glad to implement any special switches needed by exceptional updates... With that much motivation and excitement, I look forward to seeing any results as well! Even if you do, you get thanked like mooms said, but if you don't, people will go complain on forums about your work not being updated to the latest month immediately... just like you did. These people here often have to bare that...

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