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John Galt
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For Siginet

Post by John Galt » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:51 am

Siginet

My problem was one of dead wrong expectations, and that is no one's fault but mine.

One of the downsides of the web is its relative anonymity, which, I won't say encourages (that's passing the buck), but which may enable really poor behavior from someone who normally wouldn't dream of it. It also provides a whole multitude of witnesses to the spectacle of one's meltdown. You get to be embarrassed on a worldwide scale.

What a tantrum....whew.

You spent a fair amount of your time sincerely trying to assist me. I responded with sarcasm. You responded with remarkable restraint. You certainly conducted yourself far more maturely than I. That is admirable. You have my (probably meaningless) respect. Also my gratitude for what you attempted but I wouldn't allow: help to a total stranger.

I'm sorry sounds lame and absolutely inadequate, but I am, and I am ashamed.

Continued success on your various projects. Too bad I've made myself unwelcome and will be unable to hang around and watch them evolve. They have great promise.

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Zacam
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Post by Zacam » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:19 pm

"Too bad I've made myself unwelcome and will be unable to hang around and watch them evolve. They have great promise."

Says perhaps you. But I would not be so hasty to make either that decision or assumption.

Seriously.

Stick around. Ask questions. Those who know and care about getting it done will answer. If the answer doesn't make sense, ask again.

Persistance is something either not used enough or completely over-used in alot of cases. Mind you, that's just a general observation of mine, not a personal opinion or statement of fact.

Hope this message finds you still reading it, because I'd like to say stick around.

It _can_ actually become as easy as you want it to be. You _can_ find expectations fulfilled. Just seems to me that maybe it will take a little more work than you might have initially anticipated to have happen.

It's worth it, in my opinion. But I could be wrong.

And yes, I realize, I'm not Siginet. Well, that's okay I guess. I rather like being me and I'm rather glad we are all ourselves.

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ricktendo64
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Post by ricktendo64 » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:32 pm

Sorry for the offtopic, but the other thread was closed and I got to respond to this hypocrisy
Mrs Peel wrote:
So what fucking right do we have to jump all over every new member
You mean like the time I tried to help & updated one of your addons and you sent me all those kind loving emails?
Last edited by ricktendo64 on Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RyanVM
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Post by RyanVM » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:03 pm

Believe me, there's plenty of room for redemption on this site if you're interested in sticking around. Hell, if you want to help improve the documentation, it would certainly be welcome :P
Get up to $200 off on hosting from the same people who host this website!
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Siginet
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Post by Siginet » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:28 pm

@John Galt I would like you to stay. Give the place a chance. I am not mad at you. Like I said we all have bad days. ask some of the mods here... they have seen me have a few bad days myself. some of the mods here probably don't even like me.

ricktendo64 was pretty much in the same boat as you when he first arrived here. He also didn't get help exactly the way he wished he had and things kind of got ugly. But he stuck it out and now he is a very valuable member here.

One thing to think of on every forum is... people think very differently. what one person thinks is fair the other doesn't. People tend to try to read between the lines on forums too. So just don't take things to heart here too much. ;) But I am sure everyone here will try their best to help if they can. ;)
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John Galt
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Post by John Galt » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:14 pm

Wow

Seems I can learn a lot more from you all than just tinkering.
Like how to be a better person.
Don't know if I would be so forgiving, SO QUICKLY

Also don't know if I'll ever master this, but I'll sure as hell be more humble.

Thank you for your graciousness.

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Mrs Peel
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Post by Mrs Peel » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:42 pm

ricktendo64 wrote:Sorry for the offtopic, but the other thread was closed and I got to respond to this....(blah blah blah blah)....kind loving emails?
Not only offtopic, but a completely different situation. You were not a new learner asking for technical help - you were messing with my addons - and if you still have a bug up your arse about that then take it to private message where it belongs.

The point of my rant was to express my annoyance at the way I have often seen new learners here ganged up on by a certain group of elitist members who treat them like it is their fault for being stupid because they are incapable of searching for answers for themself on this site.

I have seen it happen so many times in the Update Pack Discussion forum here that I rarely visit it anymore because I know I am just going to find myself being pissed off by what I read and wanting to have a rant like the one I had in John's other thread last night. I hate to see people scapegoated like this because of our own collective failure to get together some meaningful documentation.

This belittling of learners grappling with new technology by people with advanced knowledge is a very big pet peeve of mine which motivated me to do an academic research paper as part of my teachers training 3yrs ago. My research revealed that 81% of new computer learners had had their confidence to learn the new technology damaged by condescending computer nerds in computer shops and nasty network staff in their workplace and 8% of my study group had abandoned computers altogether as a result!

I see this same pattern occurring so often in online tech forums that I visit and I myself have even given up on learning Linux several times because I felt so belittled by the attitudes of elitist tech superstars that hang out in so many of the Linux support forums. Thankfully this board and MSFN are not so condescending towards new learners as some of those places - but we can still do better than we do here at times and coherent collectively organised documentation would certainly be a big part of that.

It is NOT helpful at all to say things to a new learner such as "it is easy if you know how" because that often has the effect of making them feel even more stupid if they "still don't get it". Neither is it helpful to berate new learners by telling them that they should search the posts to look for answers because being new means that you also will NOT know the correct terminology to use in order to make your search phrases deliver the kind of answers that you need. So the first thing we could do to help people like John would be to get together a thorough glossary.

We also need to remember that not everybody has so many hours in a day to invest in self-learning with this stuff by trial and error, no matter how persistent and dedicated they are. I am lucky to know what I know today ONLY because I had a lot of time on my hands when I was a new member here and that Kel took me under his wing to teach me privately - otherwise I would STILL be a relative know-nothing.

John I personally don't care about your original outburst because I just interpreted it as a scream of utter frustration - and believe me I feel that way often myself. And I most certainly do not want you to feel you should behave all submissively towards more senior members now because you think you made a fool of yourself. We've got too many sycophants here already, so please don't join that club.

I behave like an arsehole and make a fool of myself here all the time yet Ryan still went and made me a moderator ROFL! I think it's more important to just be authentic to who you are - warts and all - and if others can't handle it then that's their problem.

Cheers and welcome to the board ;)

GasPipeJimmy
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Post by GasPipeJimmy » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:10 pm

Mrs Peel wrote: I see this same pattern occurring so often in online tech forums that I visit and I myself have even given up on learning Linux several times because I felt so belittled by the attitudes of elitist tech superstars that hang out in so many of the Linux support forums. Thankfully this board and MSFN are not so condescending towards new learners as some of those places - but we can still do better than we do here at times and coherent collectively organised documentation would certainly be a big part of that.
That saved me the trouble of posting that thought. :P

Since my offer of writing a quick-start guide for a basic integration has gone unanswered, should I take that as a polite "fuck off"? :?

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Mrs Peel
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Post by Mrs Peel » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:22 pm

GasPipeJimmy wrote:Since my offer of writing a quick-start guide for a basic integration has gone unanswered, should I take that as a polite "fuck off"? :?
Sorry Jimmy I have must have missed your offer so I guess others did too.

Any member (no matter how junior or senior) is welcome to write a tutorial on any related topic and share it with us as either a post or a document. Just go ahead and put something together and I'll add a link to it in our "Creating Your Own Updates & Addons" list here.

Cheers for your kind offer ;)

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code65536
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Post by code65536 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:07 am

Mrs Peel wrote:We also need to remember that not everybody has so many hours in a day to invest
Very true. As long as you keep in mind that this scarcity of time applies to the advanced users too. Respect is reciprocal. If a newbie does not put in the time or effort to at least make a bona fide attempt at learning the material, then why should advanced users put in the time for them?

Bad newbie: "Help, I can't find XYZ!"

Good newbie: "I can't find XYZ. I've looked in the docs located at ABC and while they talk about ZYX, they say nothing about XYZ. I've also searched around, and everything that I found about XYZ doesn't address the question that I have about it."

Bad newbie: "I've looked for XYZ in your docs, and it's not there. How do you expect people to use this? You suck! Your docs suck! Etc."

Good newbie: "I've looked for XYZ in your docs, and it's not there. Could you please clarify what you meant by XYZ?"

It's not about being a newbie. It's about showing respect when opening the exchange. People who ask questions without doing the bare minimum (e.g., FAQs, stickies, checking out the first few results of a search) show disrespect by expecting for the advanced users to cater to them, and people who openly vent their anger in the direction of the advanced user (it's one thing to do it for a paid product, quite another in a forum) show disrespect by implying that somehow, the advanced users are beholden to their demands and can be admonished if such demands are not met, almost as if they were servants.

Does this justify advanced users going out of their way to be nasty? No, because we don't gain anything from that, and that sometimes just results in flame wars. But I think it does justify ignoring, snappy responses, and also (calmly) pointing out to the newbie that the newbie has fallen into the "bad newbie" category. Years ago, I used to moderate a tech forum, and I've seen more than my fair share of bad newbies, and I think that newbies should understand why it is that advanced users can be easily ticked off. That having been said, I've also seen many good newbies, and they're always a delight to help. It's not whether or not you know stuff or whether or not you're a newbie that's important: what's important is the respect that newbies give (or often don't give).

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ricktendo64
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Post by ricktendo64 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:02 am

(Members post removed by moderator)

######## TAKE YOUR PERSONAL DISPUTES TO PRIVATE MESSAGE ########

Id like to know which moderator...
Last edited by ricktendo64 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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grief
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Post by grief » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:38 am

not trying to get involved in this but i would like to point out that the reason why john galt got the response he did was because of the attitude in his posts. not to put words in his mouth, but it seemed like he was blaming the community and addon/update creators for his lack of success with the integrator.

i was a newbie and still am a newbie, however i realize people are busy and aren't at my beck and call 24/7 to answer/do things for me. search the forums, google topics, trial and error, after that i can only be polite and ask for help and hope someone reads it.

i will say this, rvm boards are much more friendlier than other sites. less ego here and more willingness to help people.

i'd love to see a new entry level tutorial! keep a ongoing thread that way people can comment on it and we can make suggestions on how to make it easier for beginners and more helpfull for those with a better understanding.

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RyanVM
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Post by RyanVM » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:38 am

ricktendo64 wrote:Id like to know which moderator...
It's irrelevant because it's forum policy. I would expect all moderators do have done the same.
Get up to $200 off on hosting from the same people who host this website!
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